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For via ferrata lovers

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s51kq7. 08. 2010 22:13:36
Pity, because Kaiserschild was a "dangerous" thing. eek Especially in terms of ruggedness and length one of the toughest for the heavies. For most experienced participants the hardest so far, personally something average at the top of extreme steel ones... Surely no one will forget it. mežikanje

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Bojan_A7. 08. 2010 22:40:53
Yes, pity.

What about the Königsjodler ferrata, how is it. Have you been?

Video: eek http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vOsw86f8XE
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Griha8. 08. 2010 00:31:06
Turkenkopf klettersteig

Description of the ferrata above Eisenkappel is also on the portal www.hribi.net
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s51kq8. 08. 2010 08:47:30
Königsjodler until recently was considered one of the most demanding. It's also one of the largest privately made ferratas overall. But since Austrians this year extended the rating scale to F/G! and also built the first E/F ferrata, Königsjodler is now just a long (time-wise demanding) hard ferrata for the most experienced. Technically the newest are surely harder. That E/F is so hard that I wonder if I'm even able to climb it, despite alpine experience.

Otherwise on Königsjodler you need double trolley and work gloves for Flying Fox (cableway), via ferrata set, and above all good weather all day. The tour is extremely long, no emergency exits! And careful, this year already two dead in it.
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s51kq8. 08. 2010 15:39:04
Some photos and material for Königsjodler collected HERE
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geppo8. 08. 2010 18:49:26
Thanks!!
Nice and veeeeery demanding. But it pulls you in when you see it and at the same time warns of a very demanding ferrata. I'll keep diligently training around A to D (and a bit E - if in betweenvelik nasmeh ).
Best
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Gorazd G8. 08. 2010 19:41:33
Bojan, why the cynicism? mežikanje

My thoughts on secured paths are still from the times when I was young and stupid. Now I'm grown up, became a dad and finally got smart. The "fathers" (Mijo, Zlatko, Milan and others) convinced me with descriptions and wonderful photos what the point of via ferratas in mountains is, and you who are much younger than me, as I see also. mežikanje

P.S. Recommend you read (if not yet) the humorous piece in August PV. I like it very much. nasmeh
What do you say, what title for the 11th chapter?
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benjamin78. 08. 2010 20:04:42
Let me add my opinion too. Königsjodler of course has an emergency exit at about 2/3 (s51kg), but true, it still requires good fitness (especially arms) and lots of caution. Over that fox you can go without pulley (safety set shortens, it goes, for secured paths we use gloves anyway. We had excellent weather and nice snack by the glacier lake at the top(10.7.2010), but this path is extremely visited. Of course doesn't surpass our Triglav, but surely above average visited given difficulty. Yes, Bojan, that well shot video tempts many... Definitely needs serious approach!
Better that our mountains stay as they are, i.e. with as little iron as possible, not to mention metal cable structures on mountain tops (e.g. what Austrian Dachstein has).
So, better drive a bit. A real mountaineer surely won't mind getting up at 2am and heading to the desired hiking. Right?
Oh, link: http://www.hribi.net/trenutnerazmere.asp?aut=1&gorovjeid=10005&id=2723
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JusAvgustin8. 08. 2010 20:16:31
ferratas should stay in austria and italy, we don't need that in slovenia. better grab the rock than a piece of iron sticking out of it... my personal opinion
Cheers
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viharnik8. 08. 2010 20:54:10
I'm also against any drilling of Slovenian mountains. There are tons of such or other paths in our mountains, also paid huts, what little remains of pristine untouched mountain corners should stay for more experienced rough mountaineers, walls for alpinists.
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s51kq9. 08. 2010 11:21:33
In the Königsjodler there are many accidents and rescues every year, and it's not to be underestimated. The most dangerous is the inclined cable, since most don't use ropes and prusiks for descending/belaying during the descent, nor do they have appropriate (thick) leather gloves for braking with them. Most fractures and injuries are in the wall where the FlyingFox cable ends. Also, some don't always respect self-belay rules - they solo, and also go with too little experience for this difficulty.

The last two fatal accidents are only a couple of days old (1 August 2010). Within a few hours' interval, a 50-year-old German detective fell 100m down, and a 47-year-old Czech doctor fell over 50m deep, almost at the same spot.

With emergency exits it's usually like this, if you don't have two 60m ropes, slings, hammer and pegs with you, you're screwed. Of course, you must know at least basic alpine maneuvers etc. The one who can't go on in the ferrata is usually not physically able to descend independently, besides cramps he's also psyched out. Such a one needs to be brought down from the wall by one of the rescue methods.

As long as nothing happens, OK superficially you don't need to know anything and have no additional equipment with you. But is it really like that?

The line between pleasure and accident in difficult ferratas is right next to us. Unfortunately, some realize it when it's already too late. Gaining experience gradually, good psychophysical preparation, good trip preparation, suitable weather, enough equipment and experience for possible rescue, and a reliable partner even in ferratas play a key role.

The Königsjodler ferrata was built in 2001 and has only C/D rating, which might mislead. However, its length, exposure and technical difficulty even today, in the era of harder ferratas than this, represents a serious challenge even for an experienced mountaineer.

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Bojan_A9. 08. 2010 11:52:06
Gorazd, I completely agree with your super post about Cjajnik. I really have been in ferratas a bit more this year, but that doesn't mean I like this way of "climbing". Of course it's fun. But a hundred times rather I'd go climb something real.
I hope I finally go next week. (Hey can't wait)nasmeh

I don't subscribe to PV, so I haven't read the article.

Mijo, thanks for the info on Königsjodler. I see this ferrata is really demanding and I'll visit it only in a year or so when we gain experience.

Anyway, I'm also absolutely against pulling any ferrata in Slovenia.
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geppo9. 08. 2010 12:15:23
We do have plenty of walls like for example in Lawamünd and we could pull a ferrata there without harm. It would probably always be visited, like elsewhere. Similarly, walls are drilled and equipped with bolts right near me (Kotečnik, Kamnik). People drive there to climb and train from all over Slovenia.
Regards
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s51kq9. 08. 2010 12:17:14
Bojan, if you enjoy real climbing pleasure, go to alpine school as soon as possible. Since you're young it's very easy. Now in autumn, when most sections start with enrollments, is the ideal opportunity. Remember Nina from the "A" course? Now she's already an older trainee in their alpine section.

Regards, Mijo
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Bojan_A9. 08. 2010 12:42:39
I already went to alpine school. Only the exam is missing for me. I would have done it already, but I was injured exactly on the exam day and couldn't take it. I still remember Nine, of course.

LP, Bojan
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s51kq9. 08. 2010 13:17:15
Super, then there's nothing else but diligently collect routes so that the conditions for promotion to junior trainee are met. And of course the exam as soon as possible, without it no continuation ... What else are you missing: rock, winter or glacier technique? Which AO are you at?

After alpine school, with a bunch of long routes climbed, you shouldn't have problems in difficult ferratas. You're trained - you know what you're doing, you know how to rescue and have partially developed wall movement technique. So just courageously and smartly forward.

Lots of success!
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Bojan_A11. 08. 2010 09:23:45
I'm missing rock technique (and arm strength) to climb anything really hard. I'm at AO Radovljica.

I was yesterday on Turkenkop: http://bojanambrozic.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!ACD975034630F7FE!10299.entry

Yes Mijo, lots of success to you too and good reports from the mountains. And hope we meet sometime in the mountains.

LP, Bojan
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Gorazd G11. 08. 2010 10:43:47
Congratulations to Bojan for the last opinion on pulling on cables and the explanation and simultaneous apology. Of course you're right, it was all cynicism - the mountaineering humor did its thing. mežikanje The author turned the mountain rules upside down in it, because he figured you have to write the opposite so that most people follow at least basic rules of behavior in the mountains. Ten rules in new guise:
- pick mountain flowers!
- disturb mountain peace!
- scare wildlife!
- kill snakes
- litter
-don't greet
and so on to ten
The eleventh could be titled:
-build as many ferratas as possible!

My opinion on such paths is still as written about Cjajnik and thanks for agreeing. Even geppo once wrote that he agrees, although with all his enthusiasm for iron in the mountains it's hard to believe. For him I have another link:

http://www.gore-ljudje.net/novosti/4670/

Geppo, try thinking broader and for a moment suppress your immense admiration for such paths. You're definitely a nature lover (if we put it to a poll it would be 100% yes). You enjoy nature, right? But lately you only enjoy nature if someone builds something in it for you?! Get what I mean. Where are the animals, botany, rocks that Bojan researches and more and more ... What interests you in the mountains besides huge amounts of iron that someone brought into nature, turned the wall into a construction site so you can enjoy it? You're aiming for ever harder ferratas: today D, tomorrow E, then F ... What then? You write that at the entrance to the ferrata at Železni kapli there were already lots of people in the dark. Are we heading towards such paths replacing afternoon/evening gym?

For Igla you say you're against, for Strevčeva peč immediately for, although I think climbers would jump up even more for the latter. Fully justified. Top Slovenian climber Andrej Grmovšek equipped a belay station in that wall, and his conscience still bothers him years later. And what are you advocating for? True, we all intervene in nature, alpinists, climbers, off-trailers, ferrateers (or whatever you call yourselves), ordinary hikers, excursionists ... But what you're advocating for in the case of Strevčeva peč is like comparing making a path with pickaxe and hoe to a bulldozer digging a few meters wide trench a few meters away.

One more tip for you. Mijo is a highly respected figure from the alpinism world, whom I also respect a lot, although I don't agree with him on ferratas. Hard to find a person who's such a connoisseur of mountains, climbing gear and at the same time mentor, guide and more. I don't doubt he gave you lots of useful tips on moving on very demanding paths. Try climbing an easier climbing route with him once, and you'll see the difference between pulling on iron and contact with a real wall.

Many things are out of my reach too, but it doesn't occur to me that someone has to build something in the mountains for me to achieve my pleasure and goal. Viki Grošelj said some time ago that with today's technique everything - or almost everything - is possible, but that's not it. Geppo, you think it is, you've found your goal and enjoy it. To your regret (and to the regret of half this forum) not in Slovenia. Not yet ...

Good luck!
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panda11. 08. 2010 13:15:31
A similar debate on ferratas yes/no took place on a related forum. Of course opinions are always divided and we'll never all be equally satisfied. Why no ferratas and why yes ferratas? Maybe some don't think it's appropriate to dangle on iron with a safety kit, because they prefer free climbing and vice versa. All that holds, however you turn it. And yet real ferratas for enthusiasts are too far in neighboring Austria and Italy. Why not have them or why have them, the question always arises. Pleasures are different. This is just my humble opinion. Whoever wants to climb them, let them; by the way I'd also, if there were. LP nasmeh
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geppo11. 08. 2010 13:29:58
Gorazd look!
Once I wrote that my number of climbed ferratas doesn't exceed the number of fingers on one hand (Košutnikov turn, Lawamünd, Cjajnik and now Železna kapla)
I never wrote that it bothers me and that endless pulling in chimneys is hard for me (which most write and still happily do).
I never mentioned (wrote) that I've found my goal in climbing ferratas!!

At my age, when the curve of physical ability bends downward I don't plan to climb
"always harder ferratas: today D, tomorrow E, then F .."

Me as a mountaineer who walks in nature all life was interested (based on descriptions Cjajnik and others..) how I would behave on such a path and how capable I am.
I climbed Cjajnik on suggestion of my older colleague (and also my secret wish, he's not solely to blame..zavijanje z očmi ). Not to have a carabiner next to me in the photo at the top. I was interested to see what it is that everyone writes about?
Then I learn that nearby there's an even harder ferrata (Železna Kapla). Immediately got the desire to try that too.
and that's it..
No desire for F/G yet..

I'd like to join some guided trip abroad sometime and climb another ferrata (while health serves) and I'll be satisfied. Now at least I know my limit and what to expect when reading description.
If there was a ferrata in some cliff here (if not too far), I'd happily spend some afternoon in it.
That I admit...(half forgive menasmeh)
Look Gorazd:
Climbers have hundreds of drilled bolts in nearby walls and boulders. All those cliffs shine with screws and ...
Right, let them train and practice (I too climb some III in hiking boots - can't do more jezen )

Regards Zlatko

Kotečnik1
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