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| lynx14. 06. 2012 11:54:01 |
but the sling dampens better, especially if you assemble the system with the plate wrong.
I would also recommend a combined kit, because then you can use the lower part for something else too.
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| urbancek14. 06. 2012 15:32:30 |
Just don't invent hot water from this... 
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| viharnik14. 06. 2012 22:23:38 |
Hot water regarding shock absorber protectors on the climbing harness is invented only by "smart" company manufacturers who look primarily at profits.
Decades ago everyone was tied in and belayed only on the rope. The force with which we might fall from one piton-cable to another at a distance of two to three meters is by no means so great that it would injure someone wearing a good modern padded climbing harness upon stopping.
The safety system itself costs as much as another good climbing harness. I use a four-meter rope on both ends with carabiners on the climbing harness, I don't need another for via ferratas at all. New one-piece climbing harnesses are also safe in a fall regarding preventing the climber from flipping upside down with body over head.
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| Keko14. 06. 2012 23:25:41 |
"viharnik" with your statement that in a three-meter static fall the force isn't big enough to get injured if you're just tied to the rope, I absolutely can't agree. Such a fall is already enough to break your spine due to the sudden stop and be disabled for life or even completely paralyzed. A modern safety kit dynamically stops such a fall and the forces acting on the body are much smaller. I certainly don't want such a fall even on a modern safety kit, because injuries can still occur there, how such a fall would end if tied just to the end of the rope without dynamic stopping possibility, I can hardly imagine. Especially since the fall can be much longer than three meters. Don't regret spending money when it comes to safety, save elsewhere and not on safety.
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| viharnik15. 06. 2012 06:11:17 |
Regarding mechanical safety I won't argue, much more essential is safety and feelings that come from our attic and assessments in climbing and related experiences of course the final fate of a person (as a councilor indeed) which we can't influence.
That rope-only via ferrata protection is good was confirmed to me also by old alpinists with many km of walls climbed, because back then there were no modern gadgets. It's different if the stretches between pitons are longer and more vertical or even long sections just steel braids, but that's rare.
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| Zebdi15. 06. 2012 08:27:56 |
Yes, but all safety and feelings from our attic vanish upon a fall - then only "mechanical" safety counts. If we fall three meters above the piton and are protected only with a two-meter rope leg (without braking mechanism), then the actual fall is ~5m and as Keko wrote, it will end badly.. very badly. Just for info: once we played around a bit in the crag and I tell you, it can yank you even with a very dynamic fall with 5kg backpack (using only the seat part of the harness). And also this: old alpinists in their time climbed without climbing harness, tied around the waist with hemp rope. If someone wants to repeat that, be my guest
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| Keko15. 06. 2012 08:28:19 |
"That rope-only via ferrata protection is good was confirmed to me also by old alpinists with many km of walls climbed, because back then there were no modern gadgets."
I agree with that, that was in the past, but these are modern times and we have modern safety aids available and why not use them.
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| VanSims15. 06. 2012 10:45:36 |
I also agree that if we have modern belaying techniques we should use them. In harsh times belaying techniques were worse. There were no safety belts either, later no airbags,... but today every car has that. Old alpinists just broke more often, drivers and passengers on roads died more,...
Back to modern times: What if you have an inexperienced person or e.g. a child tied to you? He probably can only use rope with carabiner?
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| urbancek15. 06. 2012 19:53:16 |
In short, we don't want falls and all these "kits" are not for falling all the time... OK, if it happens in the end, just let it be really exceptional events and it shouldn't happen all over the place and for some kind of fun. So, this gear is made for the mountaineer's thinking: "I must not fall!" and not for thinking "I can fall, I'm "protected"", as someone might explain while reading this thread and endless debating how much this holds, how much that... That shouldn't be in the mindset, because no one should fall, except as said in those rare exceptional cases when everything else fails a person.
The fact is that "kits" for self-belaying serve the psyche and confidence of the mountaineer in the sense that there's some safeguard in the head. The other purpose is really physical, namely to hold you to the wall on water-conducting cables during various "instabilities". With vertically tensioned cable with very spaced anchors, injuries will in most cases be very severe or fatal, so the self-belay kit here won't save lives, but upon fall it will just ensure that the injured isn't found hundreds or thousands of meters lowerBest regards!
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| Swiss16. 06. 2012 06:17:05 |
Hello!
Bravo "urbancek" for the argued comment. In my opinion, this thread could be closed with this.
Best regards and safe in the mountains!
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| matdra18. 06. 2012 12:30:13 |
I have to speak up here because that "city dweller's" opinion is nonsensical and dangerous. The self-belay kit is there for a purpose and yeah, even though no one thinks "now I'm gonna wanna fall", accidents happen. Interestingly, it's precisely the real mountaineers who always use the kits, the so-called top mountaineers don't. Statistics don't lie and many accidents! could be prevented with self-belay kits. I think the self-belay kit should be MANDATORY for everyone going on a very demanding route. The cables and pegs are there for a reason, otherwise it'd all be free climbing.
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| grga18. 06. 2012 12:40:23 |
I don't know why the city guy's thinking should be nonsensical and dangerous. I completely agree with him.
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| Zebdi18. 06. 2012 13:04:01 |
It's not nonsensical and dangerous, but it's a bit misleading. I completely agree with the first paragraph, the second is really a bit misleading. It says that in a fall on a vertically tensioned cable with very spaced anchors, injuries will in most cases be very severe or fatal. Of course, this only applies to a fall right near the upper anchor and if the anchors are really far apart. You can also fall closer to the lower anchor, where the consequences won't be so severe - provided of course we have a self-belay kit.
About the usefulness of using such a kit in our mountains some other time..
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| dprapr18. 06. 2012 16:51:48 |
"I think the self-belay kit should be MANDATORY for everyone going on a very demanding route."
Matdra - I hope no one shows up suggesting it's mandatory to stay in the valley!
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| viharnik18. 06. 2012 18:21:34 |
When we mountaineers didn't have climbing harnesses yet, we were very happy if there was a piton and frayed wire on the route, now everyone is making a fuss with some perfect gear that doesn't give that authentic climbing-ascent and thus the mountain experience gets distorted-warped. I still say that the greatest safety is still in our heads, feelings, experiences and final decisions that we can still manage something. Finally, with gear we also get beaten up in a possible fall or even more seriously injured - piton rips out, cam, falling rocks etc.
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| matdra18. 06. 2012 20:31:03 |
Then we don't need helmets, crampons etc. for safety either
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| viharnik18. 06. 2012 20:53:14 |
Mountain nudists probably don't take shoes with them into the wall, but they have to rescue them multiple times when they get stuck.
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| 1mitjas18. 06. 2012 22:46:09 |
You won't easily find a mountain guide who recommends a two-piece harness. We all look at our comfort. I've had quite a few long falls into the lower part of the harness myself, and I'm still here with my whole spine. In extreme cases, the entire harness saves your back (with heavy backpack -20+ kg.)
On via ferratas, the forces in a fall on a piton are very high, much higher than in alpinism (the cable is more static than the rope, stopping happens on the lower piton). The human body can withstand 7 kN without major injuries, that's why all climbing and via ferrata gear is made for that force. I wouldn't experiment with rope ends, maybe even prusiks instead of self-belay kit. But if there's a child behind, prusik is quite sufficient with proper technique. Of course, the leader must know exactly what he's doing, not waiting when he'll fall.
ps.: and tie the child to the designated spots, not to the gear loop. I see that often too.
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| Keko19. 06. 2012 00:51:30 |
"1mitjas" wrote it completely correctly and I fully agree with him. That the approximate force the human body can take without injury is around 7 to 8 kN can be seen from the data on the arrest force provided by dynamic ropes for belaying available on the market today. I'd add some numbers you get if you plug some data into physics equations. A modern belay kit with a stitched tape that tears in a controlled manner can extend by about 2 meters in a fall. If we take as example a falling person of 75 kg mass and don't exceed the arrest force of 7 kN, the fall can be max about 20 m. If the same person falls belayed with rope or endless loop and consider that it also extends by 10 cm in the fall, we get a fall of about 4 meters. These are very rough calculations without considering gear and backpack weight or heavier person, which would reduce the fall height accordingly. I provided these data so that even those not too familiar with physics can roughly know the limits of safety devices. From these numbers you can see that the belay kit can quite well save lives if a fall happens. It's necessary to be aware that injuries can occur even in smaller falls, as these numbers are theoretical and don't account for additional factors affecting injuries in a fall (hits on rocks, uncontrolled twists, etc...).
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| viharnik19. 06. 2012 05:55:35 |
Mitjas' explanation is spot on regarding the load on the one-piece harness or +20kg backpack weight, I've heard that too. Keko backed it up with empirical physics calculation without considering possible side factors for a specific accident case. That's it!.
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