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| SunBurned31. 07. 2014 11:29:34 |
Very good thinking.
I also don't intend to moralize those who go completely without gear, or rather I think something similar about them as about those who drive unbuckled.
But I just wanted to say that objectively gear increases safety and it's not right to dismiss it. Of course there is a limit beyond which even a helmet or VF kit are no longer almighty. But that limit is certainly higher with gear.
And it makes no sense for an inexperienced dizzy person to rush onto exposed paths, even with all the gear.
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| pikica131. 07. 2014 12:16:18 |
On demanding secured paths it's recommended to go when we already have a couple of years of "regular" hiking behind us. Then the use of various protections is clear, when and how. Our secured paths are nicely routed along natural passages and ledges, no forcing at all. These are not via ferratas, although up here I constantly read about via ferrata on Mojstrovka and Prisank. Just because there's a ladder it looks like a ferrata.
Probably many more accidents happen outside of rings and pegs.
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| drofebo131. 07. 2014 12:20:40 |
Bravo pikica1, well written. For this comment I give you a big plus. As you mentioned, nowadays people in the mountains just rush somewhere, don't care about others regarding safety and set some records in summiting. Because of that accidents can happen quickly, whether you have a helmet on your head and a via ferrata kit or not. I'm also from the older generation of hikers and back then there wasn't all this safety gear, yet we hiked a lot of secured paths. Best regards.
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| Keko31. 07. 2014 12:29:21 |
When my wife and I were climbing a route in the pillar that runs along the left side of this secured path in spring, on the descent we encountered two older ladies who had just reached the top via that secured path. The ladies were around 60 in my estimation. Since they had climbed to the top without safety kits and without belaying, given their age it didn't give me peace and I asked them why without protection. To my question one of them waves her hand and says she's already hiked and climbed everything secured in Slovenia over the years without protection and that this path is nothing special either. She also said she notices how some are clumsy with these kits and that their behavior seems even more dangerous to her than an experienced hiker without protection.
We have a good example from Gonžarjeva peč, where there have already been two fatalities due to improper use of the safety kit and also quite a few injuries.
With safety kits it's the same as with weapons. If you give a weapon to someone who doesn't know how to use it, there's a high risk they'll accidentally shoot themselves.
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| jedriličar31. 07. 2014 13:17:31 |
As far as I remember, the fatal accidents at Gonžarjeva happened because <home made> via ferrata kits were used, with(without) shock absorber plates. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I recall from GRS reports, it was like that. Of course, the question is what would happen with proper via ferrata kits, but the fact is that the fall factor is lower with them and they certainly soften the impact, i.e. at least partially absorb the fall energy. As for these experienced climbers <free>, my experience says every climber falls sooner or later for various reasons, only if secured you get a second chance, if not, you don't. And there the story ends, everyone is the blacksmith of their own fortune ... Of course, what gets on my nerves is when on a crowded ferrata such guys directly endanger others, but if they are alone on the ferrata and don't endanger anyone, ... be my guest ...
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| Keko31. 07. 2014 13:19:00 |
At Gonžarjeva peč in the first fatal case at the moment of the fall he wasn't clipped into the cable, in the second case he was clipped into the cable, but had the via ferrata kit attached to the harness wrong, namely to the loop intended for carrying climbing gear (kits, carabiners, pegs...). There was nothing wrong with the safety kits themselves. The accidents were caused solely by non-use and improper use of the safety kits.
In no way can we compare Gradiška tour and Gonžarjeva peč in difficulty, as the latter is a couple of grades harder and is the only ferrata we have where protection is mandatory, but in the proper way.
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| dprapr31. 07. 2014 13:20:34 |
I completely agree that there are no ferratas in our high mountain world. And I hope we never see them! In my opinion they don't belong up there. Via Italiana comes closest to a ferrata, but it's already over the line.
Sometimes I observe hikers (admittedly rarely, last in Austria), how they "fiddle" with these kits where they don't need them at all. And they only hold up those behind them, making progress harder for themselves. If the path isn't prepared for such progression (and most of ours aren't), the fall risk only increases. And often they linger longer in the fall line of possible falling rocks because of using the VF kit...
I also notice that some with their aggressiveness want to gradually equip us in the style of those who left their armors in castles.
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| jedriličar31. 07. 2014 13:38:45 |
@keko: then I apologize ... I remember there were some falls where accidents happened because carabiners broke on impact with pegs, because there were no shock absorbers, so the fall energy was enormously higher. Obviously that wasn't at Gonžarjeva ...
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| dprapr31. 07. 2014 13:41:38 |
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| VanSims31. 07. 2014 17:05:15 |
The comparison with cars, seatbelts,... is excellent. What a fuss there was when they were made mandatory here in the early 80s. Some even proved that the belt harms in an accident,... Well, today we know it can save lives and most of us buckle up diligently.
I don't remember where I saw the accident statistics from the 70s in Slovenia. Approx. 400-500 dead per year. And back then there weren't that many cars yet (at most one per family) and consequently less traffic. Many died in accidents where today an airbag or belt would save them.
Today they laugh at 'helmet wearers', tomorrow it will be normal part of mountaineering gear. How they laughed at poles 15, 20 years ago. If there had been a forum online then some would vehemently argue how poles are unnecessary, ridiculous, even harmful because you can impale yourself on them,...
Back then there were no helmets, no VF kits,... Then whoever got a rock on the head or fell on a ferrata just died or got seriously injured. Most of you were lucky it didn't happen to you, some weren't... If they could speak today they'd say they regret not being born so many years later.
When it's also like abroad here, that accident costs won't be paid from the budget anymore, but you'll have to insure against accidents or pay costs yourself, then I won't care how anyone is equipped. Until then, those who with lack of equipment, overestimation, recklessness and such challenge accidents and get them, are practically stealing from the budget.
And of course under the condition mentioned by @jedriličar, that they don't endanger others with it. And he's right, the second accident at Gonžarjeva peč happened because of 'home made' protection. And as he said: everyone is the blacksmith of their own fortune. Whether you protect yourself or not is your business (as long as you don't endanger others). So decide for yourself!
It seems stupid to me that some protect themselves or not because of what others will say: e.g. not because they'll seem like some heroes or because someone on hribi.net said that on our ferratas (intentionally using that term, whoever doesn't know Italian look up what 'via ferrata' means) you don't protect, or because they're afraid someone will laugh at them or yell at them (as I experienced myself but didn't worry much).
Life is yours not others'!
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| jax31. 07. 2014 18:13:39 |
No, the comparison with seat belts doesn't hold up entirely either. The thing is that using a seat belt doesn't hinder car use or reduce its usability at all. On the other side, progressing with consistent self-belay kit use is much slower, which ultimately can affect safety too. So I take one hour by car from Nova Gorica to Ljubljana, buckled or not. For an average protected route, using SVK takes me much more time. In the end every alpinist will say you always compromise between speed and safety, and slower isn't always safer. Same in via ferratas. Excessive slowness means longer stays in falling rock zones, concentration drops, longer tour time increasing weather exposure. These are real risk factors to consider. Not saying self-belay kit doesn't boost safety, but it's balancing two factor groups, answer not black-white.
One more thing - no one's touched how self-belay kit is used. Feels like except very hard via ferratas, it's put on then clipped where it feels hard. Same dilemma - dangerous on one side, but strict clipping every anchor worsens slowness.
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| dprapr31. 07. 2014 18:43:50 |
The fact is, until we're capable of a protected path without SVK, we have no business there even with SVK. As experts said, start with easier paths, educate/train, only after years go to harder ones. Most accidents in scree, snow patches, steep grass, not on protected paths with pegs/sl ings.
Hair stands up seeing them fumble with kits, drag them, forget to unclip in time... On paths where years ago no one thought of self-belay. Guides probably require now because they must.
Seatbelt comparison mentioned. True, avoided till first fine. Want fines in mountains? Still buy cars with ashtrays that don't belong there, like smoking while driving. But belt more important!
Like SVK more important than prep/gradual harder paths.
If true via ferrata, agree equipment mandatory + handling knowledge.
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| VanSims31. 07. 2014 20:00:04 |
Of course need to know kit, else loses meaning or dangerous. Go gradually. No surprise if someone uses SVK on easier paths. Time to learn there, not after advancing to harder ferratas.
We know always clipped at least one carabiner (e.g. switching). Basics. When switch going up logical (though here close pegs less important but practice for serious foreign ferratas gets in blood). Avg SVK handler knowledge ends here.
E.g. how carabiners oriented? Gate down or up? Straps? Or loose dangling legs like mostly seen? Eh, things most regular users don't know... Not unimportant.
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| viharnik31. 07. 2014 20:23:52 |
In 90s (80-90) our mountains had protected paths looking less safe on sections than today. Still visited by real hikers then. No cable/peg or worn/broken, gripped rock and went on. No knowledge of self-belay kit except climbing rope existed. Seasons natural with solid winters much snow, little rockfall noticed. Later with consumer boom climbing/mountaineering aids developed incl. kit.
Now from unpredictable nature/rockfall view, helmet + belay kit mandatory. Hiker population rise/frequency protected paths calls for self-belay.
Who catches quiet weekday in mountains skilled on protected, gets more dynamic/natural approach than with SVK.
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| IgorZlodej31. 07. 2014 20:25:40 |
All gear has pictorial/text instructions, so fiddling unnecessary. Anyone long in mountains knows when/where use what. Problem those skipping steps.
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