| onsight25. 08. 2008 18:36:14 |
I also agree that the matter somehow needs to be "brought to an end", such a debate makes no sense if it drags on endlessly, goes off-topic and actually can give the impression that in the end it's already about mutual settling scores, which probably really isn't the purpose of this forum, much less mine. For the conclusion, I don't intend to reply to individual parts of the last writings either, because I'd repeat myself, maybe someone's fingers would itch again and the circle would close again.
It's sensible to occasionally reread all contributions on a topic, even one's own. Otherwise, one quickly forgets what the talk is about, what one concretely wrote sometime and how. In this way, responses and reactions of interlocutors are sometimes easier to understand, and there's no feeling that you've suddenly become a victim. Already at the very beginning of my writing on this topic I said, "let him take at least his own, IF it's found somewhere." Explaining to someone now why it was found somewhere (so to speak among "spits"), really makes no sense, he knows best himself.
Everyone experiences or sees mountaineering their own way, philosophizing about it is also a pleasant thing, especially if we do it from a warm armchair. Why not? If mountains and everything connected with them are so beautiful, mighty, also dangerous, it's hard for a true enthusiast not to talk about them, exchange experiences, share something new, process the old…
All until some justified, but also unjustified questions, dilemmas are raised. There it all ends in searching for an answer that is again unique to each individual and which he is ready to defend ardently. I myself have no idea, I don't know an answer that might serve as a general rule or fit everyone.
Let me just list some of my thoughts… again from the heart… exclusively my thoughts, I don't want to poke, offend anyone etc.
Marking off-trail paths – GPS tracks? Philosophically speaking, every path that is marked in any way is no longer off-trail. Be it tracks, markings or cairns. Am I for or against off-trail paths in general? It would be very hypocritical of me to speak against, considering that alpinism and climbing mountain walls isn't foreign to me. After all, in both cases it's about finding passages in terrain where no already walked and marked path exists. So should we rejoice at technological progress or not? What will it bring? Maybe soon a device on the market that draws the exact sequence of movements and passages in alpine routes and thus now orientationally very demanding routes in the Alps will be a piece of cake. Can I do anything against it? I think not. Does it seem right to me? To you? Will there be more crowds in those walls because of it? Will there now be because of GPS tracks on off-trail paths? Who knows. We'll see. Will there be more accidents? Does anyone know accident percentages… is walking off-trail first? Fell because he stared at GPS track and didn't see he's on the edge of a precipice! Will animal inhabitants of mountains be more disturbed because of it? Again I dare say nothing, but… amazing little animals are often photographed lying by or even on the path and those more crowded, marked ones. Obviously we don't bother them too much. If of course it's hikers with soul who don't scream all the time, throw firecrackers, chase every furry soul they see by the path…but go their way in peace, respectfully to other mountain inhabitants… no, I think they've somehow accepted us as their own, we're more or less harmless (mostly). Otherwise… where the hell should they retreat to? Is there still any peak where at least a couple routes, a couple trodden paths and a bunch of "off-trail" aren't led? And everywhere at every season someone lounges there. Moral responsibility of those who enable, publish this? Annually quite a nice number of people have accidents in mountains? Does anyone call the first ascenders to Kamniško sedlo, the author of the path description to the same saddle to account? If someone gets stuck in Triglav wall, gets lost, stuck because overestimated himself… does anyone e.g. summon Čop to defense, or worse… author of Slovenske stene guide etc? Does anyone hammer on his conscience… look, you wrote where the route goes, now the poor guys are on the brink of death. I can't remember. But I'm convinced of one thing… none of them nor any of the authors of descriptions, tracks etc on this forum did it with the purpose of endangering someone. As someone already wrote… everyone knows for himself what he can do. If not, he'll learn there on the spot, a bit more roughly. It went like that until now too, even on trodden paths or equipped routes. Still, I dare think there won't be noticeably essential changes, perhaps for the simple reason… nothing in mountains is easy, without toil. For everything, even the least demanding path, one has to damn well exert oneself, one involuntarily stumbles and tires, and it all looks a bit dangerous, and with mountain weather you never know when it'll soak you, cold, snow… ugh. If someone stubbornly pushed to the end and returned to the valley empty, because simply didn't experience mountains the right way and it was his first and last attempt, he probably didn't choose some unmarked off-trail for the first time. These are factors that have so far quite successfully limited mountain visits and will continue to. True, it increases despite that but… there are more and more of us on this earth, damn it. And the percentage of those who suit mountains increases proportionally. I doubt descriptions are to blame, at least not to that extent.
What about path and off-trail ratings? I agree they're desirable, even necessary, but still… objective rating seems to me very unlikely. I also doubt the most objective rating is from an experienced mountaineer. If we just think of one of our climbing and alpinism legends – Franček Knez. Repeats of some of his routes still today count as real feats regarding protection and also difficulty, well… ask him what he thinks about it.   If you want to climb Franček's 6 or more even today, prepare for a honest route. Regarding climbing routes, the idea of a site where climbers of different abilities suggest ratings for certain routes has even established, and the prevailing rating emerges and stays. Again I doubt something like that would work for mountaineering, mainly because many more factors affect the rating. And experiences from climbing routes… with the increase in number of ever better climbers, especially younger ones, some routes that for years and years confidently carried e.g. 6, 6+ are now only 5. And for someone who just started climbing, it's still a solid 6. Similar in mountains. Experienced mountaineer who knows every chamois by name will hardly objectively rate individual passages, especially if skilled in climbing up to 6 or even higher grade, on the other side comparisons of ratings from multiple users turn into competition, proving etc. Finding the right recipe here is hard. Still, there's considerably more hope for success here than with some other question.
But certainly giving suggestions, initiatives, ideas is at least more welcome to me than criticizing someone else's done work. And work on this site is done by all.. from creators, users who contribute photos and descriptions and also forum writers…
And whatever we two think about it, dear Rakar (this is concretely aimed at you ), is of little importance.
And whether we write something more here or not anymore…the site will operate, descriptions will (thank God) come, also GPS tracks, now… the choice is ours… whether we'll be one of those who contributed to creation or one of those who spat, even if just one after another… I'm for the first option.
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